part two of the podcast series on the family integrated church movement

Join me again this week as I welcome Pastor Shawn Mathis back to continue our discussion on the Family Integrated Church movement. If you missed the first podcast, be sure to tune in and feel free to join the conversation. We would love to hear from you. Shawn also has some great resources to share and has made an email available for those who would like to contact him.

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  1. says


    Thanks for putting these podcasts together. They were very informative.

    One thing that struck me is the lack of credibility with these types of reactionary groups. In talking about the “Divided” movie Shawn mentioned that Ken Ham was cited, but his conclusions were different than what the FIC people posited in the movie. (Even though it was portrayed that Ken was supporting FIC.)

    Now that is interesting. AIG and Ken Ham produce and market both Sunday School curriculum as well as VBS material.

    It is no secret that the FIC crowd are “in bed” with AIG and other YEC groups. What I find interesting is that they have no problem twisting the truth and turning a blind eye to groups that promote what they call the problem, because those groups are valuable to building their constituency .

    The simple fact is this: The leadership in the FIC movement simply can’t be trusted to be honest.

    What is also interesting is that AIG has been caught doing the same thing.

    So my question for you and Shawn is this. Since we see the same tactics and twisting of truth from both organizations (FIC & AIG), at what point do we openly start to question the legitimacy of both groups? Are we going to hold FIC organizations to a different standard than YEC organizations? Let me remind you that AIG demands that we trust their “science” just like FIC’ers demand we trust their interpretation. But if both groups are willing to twist the truth and distort the facts in order to promote their view, why should we trust them with their conclusions of “science” or “interpretation?”

    Thanks again for the podcasts.

  2. says

    Dear Micah,

    You stated in unequivocal terms: “The simple fact is this: The leadership in the FIC movement simply can’t be trusted to be honest.”

    This cannot be inferred and should be retracted as it stands. They can be trusted to be honest on a number of issues (Trinity, importance of family, etc.). The narrow issue of Christian education history that I focus on only proves (minimally) how insufficient and sloppy some of their research is. And it certainly does not necessarily point to any nefarious motives on their parts. Rather, it may indicate laziness, impatience, lack of training, etc.

    So, as it stands, since this is mostly a one-sided conversation (they have deigned not to publicly and directly interact with me or Karen, etc.), I cannot speculate on their motives but only critique their weak position. And I leave the audience to follow the Bible and their conscience on how best to apply that new knowledge.

    And that is all I will write on this topic for now.

    take care,

  3. says


    Or it may indicate they are willing to lie and twist the truth to build their constituency.

    I stand by my charge. There is plenty of publicly documented proof.

    But it really doesn’t matter does it. I don’t have standing in your eyes because I left the OPC, right? It’s funny how you OPC guys will only try to hold those outside your club accountable.

    You should at least have the courage to let everyone know that Kevin Swanson (a major leader in the FIC movement) was commissioned by your eldership to start his own church! Does your eldership regret that decision? Or is the monster you created not big enough yet?

    Let me say that again. Providence OPC church, in which Shawn Mathis is an elder, commissioned and ordained Kevin Swanson (among others) to start Reformation Church, OPC. In fact, Kevin told me personally that it was the eldership at Providence that suggested he become the president of CHEC.

    Now Shawn, is there anything in that statement that I need to retract because it is false, or is that the truth?

    Thank you.



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